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霸王哆啦@2009-12-13 12:27
不错，内事不绝问百度，但你好歹也看全乎了吧。
“《汉书·成帝纪》如淳注引记载：“北边郡库，官之兵器所藏，置令。”
“弩的总数即达537707件，矛的总数达52555件，有方（戈类兵器）达78392件。仅以此三顶足可装备50万人的军队，远远超出一郡武库之所需。”
“该武库不属东海郡管辖。因为在东海郡吏员总簿或吏员设置簿都未见有“库令”的设置，因而可以断言，东海郡武库是国家设在东南沿海的直接受中央管辖的国家武库。 ”
切记，切记。
zxc@2009-12-13 12:39
无论如何一郡的武库有能力武装四十至五十万军队，也是一件非常恐怖的事情
不能指望当时所有的郡都有这样的储备，事实上这个储备量可能与当时东海一代的苏令暴动有关，或许当时郡本身有从民间收缴武器的行为？然而西汉郡国总数过百，苏令暴动波及不过十九，如此西汉的武库储备武器武装两百万军队绰绰有余，与当时的罗马相比，生产力上的优势显而易见
霸王哆啦@2009-12-13 13:16
一，卫青霍去病北越沙漠，所发人夫十万天下就为之一空，数十年未能恢复。
二，一郡武装四五十万，一百郡就是四五千万，两汉人口最高的估计也就是这个数。
三，我引的三段话你大概没有看懂，那我举个更浅显的例子。我国国库设置在首都北京，难道说国库资金就全部来自北京地区么？
zxc@2009-12-13 13:30
天下一空数十年未能恢复？之后李光利之流败了那么多是假的？
“北边郡库，官之兵器所藏，置令“这样庞大的储备由中央管理这有啥奇怪？五千万人人手一把弩到不至于，可是西汉不禁民间持弩，总量巨大无庸置疑
在苏令叛乱的背景下，由外地对动乱地区进行大规模的兵器运输根本是开玩笑。有防御的武库都有被攻陷的例子
zxc@2009-12-13 13:32
引用
最初由 霸王哆啦 发布
一，卫青霍去病北越沙漠，所发人夫十万天下就为之一空，数十年未能恢复。
所发人夫十万？:p
上与诸将议曰：“翕侯赵信为单于画计，常以为汉兵不能度幕轻留，今大发士卒，其势必得所欲。”乃粟马十万，令大将军青、票骑将军去病各将五万骑，私负从马复四万匹，步兵转者踵军后又数十万人
霸王哆啦@2009-12-13 14:24
引用
最初由 zxc 发布
天下一空数十年未能恢复？之后李光利之流败了那么多是假的？
“北边郡库，官之兵器所藏，置令“这样庞大的储备由中央管理这有啥奇怪？五千万人人手一把弩到不至于，可是西汉不禁民间持弩，总量巨大无庸置疑
在苏令叛乱的背景下，由外地对动乱地区进行大规模的兵器运输根本是开玩笑。有防御的武库都有被攻陷的例子
李光利是谁啊？:cool: 穿越者么？
你这不是也看明白了么？这是汉政府设置在东海的国家武库，连库令都是由朝廷直接任命的，所以请不要随便就说出汉一郡可以武装4，50万军队这种话。
至于说人手一把总量巨大这类私货，你至少要上百度去搜出靠谱点的证据才能讲，我认为，应该是，大概是这种查无实据的意淫不适合在讨论中用。
引用
所发人夫十万？ 上与诸将议曰：“翕侯赵信为单于画计，常以为汉兵不能度幕轻留，今大发士卒，其势必得所欲。”乃粟马十万，令大将军青、票骑将军去病各将五万骑，私负从马复四万匹，步兵转者踵军后又数十万人
你要把民工也算进去么:cool:
zxc@2009-12-13 14:36
引用
最初由 霸王哆啦 发布
李光利是谁啊？:cool: 穿越者么？
你这不是也看明白了么？这是汉政府设置在东海的国家武库，连库令都是由朝廷直接任命的，所以请不要随便就说出汉一郡可以武装4，50万军队这种话。
至于说人手一把总量巨大这类私货，你至少要上百度去搜出靠谱点的证据才能讲，我认为，应该是，大概是这种查无实据的意淫不适合在讨论中用。
你要把民工也算进去么:cool:
打错字好吧？[/ku]
东海郡在那时就是拥有武装四五十万军队的能力，对于一个地方武库而言，不管任何时候，能够拥有这样的储备，都透露了这个国家的兵器生产力是多么的恐怖，随时都能武装两百万军队的能力，罗马有么？
不禁民间持弩不算私货吧？
你说的是人夫十万，数十年都不能恢复么。。。前111年发兵十万灭南越，前108年攻灭卫氏朝鲜，不能恢复都这么牛b...
霸王哆啦@2009-12-13 15:04
“该武库不属东海郡管辖。因为在东海郡吏员总簿或吏员设置簿都未见有“库令”的设置，因而可以断言，东海郡武库是国家设在东南沿海的直接受中央管辖的国家武库。 ”
谁告诉你这是地方武库的？谁又告诉你这是东海郡“拥有”的？你在你的错误理解上推论出来的“这个国家随时都有武装两百万军队的能力”，确实让罗马人泪流满面。西汉有侠以武犯禁的风气，但民间持有私弩数量巨大又是怎么来的？老百姓要弩干什么？
打仨俩猴子国就叫牛b……
zxc@2009-12-13 15:27
引用
最初由 霸王哆啦 发布
“该武库不属东海郡管辖。因为在东海郡吏员总簿或吏员设置簿都未见有“库令”的设置，因而可以断言，东海郡武库是国家设在东南沿海的直接受中央管辖的国家武库。 ”
谁告诉你这是地方武库的？谁又告诉你这是东海郡“拥有”的？你在你的错误理解上推论出来的“这个国家随时都有武装两百万军队的能力”，确实让罗马人泪流满面。西汉有侠以武犯禁的风气，但民间持有私弩数量巨大又是怎么来的？老百姓要弩干什么？
打仨俩猴子国就叫牛b……
因为这个武库的地理位置处于地方，古代可没有电话无线电呢
民间持弩做啥？
引用
臣闻古者作五兵，非以相害，以禁暴讨邪也。安居则以制猛兽而备非常，有事则以设守卫而施行阵。及至周室衰微，上无明王，诸侯力政，强侵弱，众暴寡，海内扌元敝，巧诈并生，是以知者陷愚，勇者威怯，苟以得胜为务，不顾义理。故机变械饰，所以相贼害之具不可胜数。於是秦兼天下，废王道，立私议，灭《诗》《书》而守法令，去仁恩而任刑戮，堕名城，杀豪杰，销甲兵，折锋刃。其后，民以锄梃相挞击，犯法滋众，盗贼不胜，至於赭衣塞路，群盗满山，卒以乱亡。故圣王务教化而省禁防，知其不足恃也。
今陛下昭明德，建太平，举俊材，兴学官，三公有司，或由穷苍巷起白屋，裂地而封，宇内日化，方外乡风，然而盗贼犹有者，郡国二千石之罪，非挟弓弩之过也。《礼》曰男子生，桑弧蓬矢以举之，明示有事也。孔子曰：“吾何执？执射乎？”大射之礼，自天子降及庶人，三代之道也。《诗》云“大侯既抗，弓矢斯张，射夫既同，献尔发功”，言贵中也。愚闻圣王合射以明教矣，未闻弓矢之为禁也。且所为禁者，为盗贼之以攻夺也。攻夺之罪死，然而不止者，大奸之於重诛固不避也。臣恐邪人挟之而吏不能止，良民以自备而抵法禁，是擅贼威而夺民救也。窃以为无益於禁奸，而废先王之典，使学者不得习行其礼，大不便。书奏，上以难丞相弘。弘诎服焉（《汉书·吾丘寿王传》：丞相公孙弘奏，言民不得挟弓弩，上下其议，寿王对。。）
猴子国么，日后的朝代打这几个猴子国都很难很难。而且在当时还真的只有猴子国可打了
abbc@2009-12-13 15:40
汉和罗马的比较么。国外历史论坛的一个经典的讨论题目。往往有着巨大的回帖数量。
比如说这个帖子：
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/13206-han-vs-rome-military-comparisons/
从2004年一直战到2009年11月。长达一百页。有些帖子是非常精彩和深入的。里面有历史专业的职人。
abbc@2009-12-13 15:45
编辑
zxc@2009-12-13 15:48
汉全民习弓弩，它本身就是儒家最重要的礼器。对上数量相当的匈奴都不占劣势，兵员素质也不差的
abbc@2009-12-13 15:54
汉和匈奴并不是公平的比较。汉在各个领域都大大超过后者。汉和罗马才是同等级的较量。
发现WIKI上也有汉和罗马的文章。以下是专门比较军事方面的。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_Roman_and_Han_Empires
Both Rome and Han China were known for their military prowess[7].Rome gained much of its military strength through a new system of conscription and a culture that encouraged men to go into the military. After 340 BCE [7] the Romans started their expansion. As they conquered city after city on the Italian peninsula, they strengthened their armies by forcing the defeated city-states to provide manpower for the Roman military. Discipline and training were strict; the Romans punished minor infractions by death [7] The strength of this system was shown in the Punic wars [7] against Carthage, in which Rome defeated its opponent and gained control of the western Mediterranean. This demonstrated Rome had a superior military system to that of city states like Carthage. Many people were conscripted into the army- at one point ten percent of Roman adult males.[7] Around the 1st century BCE, the Roman general Marius abolished many requirements to join the army, and effectively turned the military into a volunteer professional army. At the reign of Hadrian, the Roman army numbered about 500,000 troops.[8]
Rome was known for its infantry tactics and its well-trained legionaries (see Roman infantry tactics for more details). Roman infantry were subject to a training regime that involved gymnastics, and drill and combat exercises involving a wooden gladius or spear - whereas Han soldiers played sports to stay physically fit and drilled constantly. The Roman army was organized into a number of legions, which were feared throughout the Mediterranean world. The Roman army was also adept at manoeuvring. These tactics involved the heavy use of archers and slingers to harass the enemy and masked the legion's movement. In order to deal with the armoured cataphracti the Romans would form a huge square; with pike-men on the rim forming a hedge of steel and within this square archers and cavalry would be ready to launch a counter attack. This square would also use various blocking or pincer movements to obstruct certain avenues of attack and to furnish anchor points for the counter offensive. Later during the principate a direct charge of cataphracti against a legionary square was almost certain to be repelled.[9]
The doctrine of the Roman infantry tended to stress that it was a wise idea to advance to meet enemy infantry due to the fact that a charge would encourage aggression. A sudden infantry charge was capable of routing a disordered or stationary cavalry, but as a rule infantry met cavalry at a halt. Arrian. who was governor of Cappadocia under Hadrian, described how when dealing with cavalry the legionaries were formed eight ranks deep, the first four were armed with the pilum, the remainder with the lancea. The front rank would hold their pila at forty-five degrees with the butts being braced against the ground as to present a dense row of points to the enemy. The next three ranks after throwing their pila would brace themselves against the men ahead of them. The rest of the legionaries would throw their lanceae whilst the ninth rank consisting of archers and the tenth rank of horse-archers along with artillery would add to the barrage of missiles. The enemy cavalry which managed to survive this assault would have been unable to come into contact with the infantry for the horses would instinctively refuse to rush into a seemingly solid object, they would be left to stand impotently a few metres away from the Roman line while being hit by a deluge of javelins and arrows until they were forced to withdraw.[10]
The Han army was born in completely different circumstances. The relatively flat area of China allowed large strategic maneuvers, and an early exposure to the Huns also influenced Han military thought. In addition, the Chinese invention of the powerful crossbow dramatically changed Chinese warfare; the crossbow's ability to massacre armored knights and infantry made any reliance on dense, heavy infantry formations in China implausible. The Han army was composed of infantry, missile troops (archers, crossbowmen), and cavalry in nearly equal proportions. Cavalry was present in large quantities in order to fight the Xiongnu and Qiang; the Han cavalry was very high quality, even overcoming the cavalry of the nomadic tribes that were born on horseback. Han forces also benefitted from Chinese inventions such as the horse chest harness(which allowed superior cavalry), the wheelbarrow, and advanced agricultural techniques(which allowed an effective supply column).[11]. [12]
The Han army was organized on different principles; early exposure to the Huns had taught the Chinese the need for effective missile troops and cavalry supporting infantry. Therefore, the Han army had an effective force of heavy cavalry rivaling, perhaps even surpassing that of the Huns. The Han army also had perhaps one of the most deadly weapon of the ancient age: the crossbow. This weapon, which did not spread to other areas of the world until later, gave the Han army a great strategic advantage. Crossbows and bolts were produced [13] through the advanced metallurgical industry of the Han. Different types of bolts were produced, with some bolts being made entirely of metal. The Han also used a crossbow firing line system, which would be able to maintain a continuous stream of arrows fired at their enemies. Thus, the Han army was able to dominate its opponents.
The Han created a powerful professional army that expanded the borders of the empire and secured the silk road for trade. Emperor Wudi made military service compulsory for all adult men. Professional conscripts were sent to serve in local areas. The standing army allegedly totalled up to or more than one million men [7]. The most serious military threat to the Han came from the nomadic peoples to the north, namely the Xiongnu Confederation, who raided Han territory extensively. Emperor Wu launched a series of costly campaigns against the Xiongnu; eventually, the war waged by him and his successors split up the Xiongnu, forcing the southern tribes to surrender and accept patronage, while the northern tribes were driven westward. By the end of Wudi's reign, the Han army controlled territory that stretched from the Aral sea to the Pacific, from Lake Baikal to Vietnam. The Han army also campaigned in Vietnam and Western Sichuan, but struggled with malaria, mountainous terrain and general unsuitability to the terrain. Campaigns in Western Sichuan against the Qiang, another nomadic people that threatened the empire, were also routinely conducted. Command was given to both professional generals and generals of noble birth; the tradition of professional generals had been established [14] since the fifth century BCE, two centuries before the Han. Discipline in the Han army was strict; Commanders who retreated without their troops and deserters were executed.[15][16]. During the time of the Eastern Han, professional and emergency conscription would be abolished in favor of a purely volunteer professional army.
Both armies could deploy large numbers of troops into battle. For the battle of Chalons, the Romans fielded some 50,000 men[17]. During the Battle of Arausio, the Roman Republic fielded up to 70,000 soldiers[18].
In the battle of Mobei (119 BCE), China fielded 300,000 troops, along with about 500,000 porters, auxiliaries, servants, and other support elements. In the battle of Mayi, China also fielded about 300,000 troops. China's army benefitted from the fact that the Chinese were the first to invent the horse harness, which allowed grain to be transported overland in massive quantities, unlike the Romans who relied on sea transport.[11].
The compositions of the two armies were different. The Roman army was predominantly heavy infantry, composed of legionaries supported by equal number of auxiliaries, and a proportionally smaller number of skirmishers and cavalry. The Roman army was fighting mainly infantry-on-infantry encounters; influenced by the tradition of the Greeks, the Roman army was mainly composed of heavy infantry, skilled in hand-to-hand combat.[19]
Both armies engaged in many campaigns. The Roman army was first challenged by the Gauls. Later, its eastern and southern expansion put it into contact with the Carthaginians and Greeks. These encounters lead to the development of heavy infantry tactics. In the later part of the Empire, the Roman army had to deal with cavalry foes such as the Persians and Huns, with mixed results. This prompted the introduction of heavy cavalry in the Roman army. [20]
The Han army was born from a peasant rebellion, and at its beginning was composed mainly of light infantry and crossbowmen. After the wars of the Chu-Han contention, however, its primary enemy was the Xiongnu. In fighting these nomadic barbarians, the Han army introduced heavy cavalry and large support elements; infantry was relegated to defence of the cities. [21].
Chinese professor Bo Lin, in his comparison of the Han and Roman Empires, states[22]
In comparing the two armies on a comprehensive scale, if the two armies were to clash, the Han army would most likely be initially successful. History seems to confirm this. Han Wu Ti drove out the Xiongnu, who then conquered the Germans, who eventually conquered the Roman Empire. However, this direct combat advantage by the Han army may not translate into a strategic advantage. In the "Cambridge history of war", the Roman army was shown to be weak in only two areas, valleys and flat plains. In other conditions it was very adaptive and resourceful. The Han army is based mainly on warfare with the Northern nomads, so it is fit for fighting in plains but will perhaps not be effective in other areas. In addition, in the era of cold weapons, the advantage of technology rarely lasts. As the war goes on, the technological advantage of the Han army may be negated. A long conflict will involve much more factors than simply military technology, such as the amount of reserves, as well as political and financial stability.
abbc@2009-12-13 15:57
此外还有经济，社会，法律，宗教，管理者，科技，甚至灭亡的比较。相当的有趣。
zxc@2009-12-13 16:06
这篇文章里对汉弩的评价很高么，其实我到觉得生产力才是汉帝国的最大优势。对方组织制度上的优势上不是很容易就能学会的吧？
这篇文章的很多资料都很老呀，连东海郡兵器集簿这种93年的考古发现都没有涉及到
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