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Reverie@2009-03-20 01:03

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最初由 XWZ 发布
国际友人?

如果不是的话,拜托别总是来大段的英文……


老伯你不了解情况啊
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3323653zj@2009-03-20 01:10

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最初由 qianhe12 发布
明朝灭亡,真是天灾人祸,要是没有天灾,或者皇帝能比较强,再延续个几十年还是可能的。

最糟糕的廷狱系统,连大臣都可以随意处死,特务统治,中期就开始民变,对金的野战战绩全败,集中君权,前期的文字狱,中期以后可以说不存在的海防,矿监税使疯狂剥削而商业税收却极小,几乎全部皇帝都是昏君,甚至几年不上朝,文官集团的斗争不管谁上台都只会打嘴仗,在大议礼这种脑残的问题上争论不休甚至不惜性命,真正的改革问题却没人管,这些问题都是明朝的一贯问题了,这种朝代越早完蛋越好
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正义的朋友@2009-03-20 01:16

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最初由 3323653zj 发布

最糟糕的廷狱系统,连大臣都可以随意处死,特务统治,中期就开始民变,对金的野战战绩全败,集中君权,前期的文字狱,中期以后可以说不存在的海防,矿监税使疯狂剥削而商业税收却极小,几乎全部皇帝都是昏君,甚至几年不上朝,文官集团的斗争不管谁上台都只会打嘴仗,在大议礼这种脑残的问题上争论不休甚至不惜性命,真正的改革问题却没人管,这些问题都是明朝的一贯问题了,这种朝代越早完蛋越好


其实这很假,按照这么说明朝不可能可以延续300年,这样的朝代能延续50年就是奇迹,显然明朝的历史在清朝那些乱七八糟的运动下被改的面目全非了,要知道外族人(当时)为了统治方便是什么事情都干得出的。
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Julien@2009-03-20 01:27

明朝就是士大夫集团无止境的意识形态斗争,整天大鸣大放大字报,今天你抄我的满门,明天我灭你的九族,皇帝反正干啥也干不过这群人,不干啥也没人敢动他,最后乐得做木工不上朝了,你们自己去玩吧。
至于为啥能长治久安……别以为政治斗争至上国家就不安稳,即使是今天地球上还是有许多政权稳固的原教旨和极权国家的
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玻璃蔷薇@2009-03-20 01:44

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最初由 unkstar 发布




:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Translate Server Error。。。。
還好,還好,不是404或者403。。。

传说帝都某处真的有个招牌写着404
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正义的朋友@2009-03-20 01:45

你们是以前流行清宫戏的时候那些想出名想疯了的砖家叫兽的节目看多了吧。
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qianhe12@2009-03-20 01:46

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最初由 3323653zj 发布

最糟糕的廷狱系统,连大臣都可以随意处死,特务统治,中期就开始民变,对金的野战战绩全败,集中君权,前期的文字狱,中期以后可以说不存在的海防,矿监税使疯狂剥削而商业税收却极小,几乎全部皇帝都是昏君,甚至几年不上朝,文官集团的斗争不管谁上台都只会打嘴仗,在大议礼这种脑残的问题上争论不休甚至不惜性命,真正的改革问题却没人管,这些问题都是明朝的一贯问题了,这种朝代越早完蛋越好

基本上,明朝文字狱绝对是远远没有清朝厉害,特别是可信度上的问题非常严重,实际上,几乎所有关于明朝文字狱的记载出于弘治至万历间野史稗乘所传故事——这足够说明问题了。
清朝倒不是从中期开始民变的——建立开始它民变有停过嘛?
明朝在建立两百年后,还打败了倭寇,打赢了抗日援朝,270年后,海军还击败了荷兰。满清建立两百年后,两次鸦片战争战败,260年后北洋舰队就被灭掉。
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正义的朋友@2009-03-20 01:50

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最初由 qianhe12 发布

基本上,明朝文字狱绝对是远远没有清朝厉害,特别是可信度上的问题非常严重,实际上,几乎所有关于明朝文字狱的记载出于弘治至万历间野史稗乘所传故事——这足够说明问题了。


嗯,明朝是一个非常崇尚言论自由的朝代,前段时间的清史热真是害了不少人。
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qianhe12@2009-03-20 02:06

说真的,满清篡改编造的东西实在是很多。另外就是,明朝或许不算太好,不过褒明朝倒很简单,把他们和清朝比就是,马上就显得非常不错了。
明末的百姓生活的比清朝所谓“康乾盛世”都好,明朝的皇帝人再废,绝对是有骨气的,比清朝又废有软的要好的多,万历不行吧?他统治时的科技,财政,人民生活全面胜过清朝。清朝皇帝唯一胜过明朝的大概就是勤奋了,可惜这种勤奋对国对民有啥益处?
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eee904ha@2009-03-20 02:07

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最初由 fallingpowerg4 发布






How do you define a higher being that defines all physic laws? I'll take it as another civilization in OUR universe...since if you create a whole new universe, how physic laws differs renders the whole discussion useless. Let's assume, that they're from Pluto, we call them Plutons.

So, first thing first, the ways of define differs yet laws prevail.
In ancient earth, apple drops to the ground. Today apple still drops to the ground. Ancient human say "The land sucks the apple down", we say today that it is called "Gravity".

Now, apple, if it exists on Pluto, it's still going to drop to the ground cuz Pluto still have gravity. Pluton civilization doesn't just come out of nowhere, it took time to evolve. So, even if Plutons define this mechanic in a higher level now, at one point in their history, they still says "Gravity" or "Land sucks the apple down".

See? Higher beings are higher beings because they lived and evolved longer than we did, not because they're made superier.

Back to the physics. Now, Plutons may describe the universe using Ultra-advance laws that far surpassed Classic Mechanics or even Quatum Mechanics, I'm pretty sure that those things still exist in their old books written centuries back. They've used them in far past. They WERE useful. The steps they followed aren't too different from ours---unless they encountered even higher races from the other side of the galaxy---this also only helps them to just JUMP forward in evolution.



Westrn civilization now defines the way of defining the universe because they happened to be the one who builds up a superier world in the past couple of centuries.(1800~)

BUT! look at the days before, the medieval age.
Americans rules now, they don't exist back then.
Europeans too, they seem superier than Asians or rather say Chinese yet when Chinese built up the Dynasties they still live in damn caves.
Japan...well, when Chinese already have written culture and literature they were eating GRASS!

And of course not to mention that the first damn physic book is written by Chinese actually.




Western culture isn't really that different from ours, it is just that they caught the right time and the right chance.

Other than saying Western civilization is alien, I would say Issac Newton was alien, Einstein too. They were alien enough to push a civilization forward. Maybe not because they're smart but because they already knew. So your theory applies to individuals, not races.

Every one knows that apple falls down from the tree, but only Newton discovered the theory of gravity. This theory is Newton's way of explaining the event(apple falls down). The other people simply accepted his idea. But we can not ignore the fact that there might be some other way of explaining this event. Say, in Pluto, a guy developed a method different from that of Newton.

After all, modern science is just one of human's attempt to understand the universe. It is developed by human and can only be developed by human. Modern science is not THE TRUTH. In the future, something better might come up to replace it.

About European and Chinese, we can not say who is better. They are simply different. The way how European thinks helps them develop modern science. Ancient Chinese used some other ways to explain the world.

p.s. Today, Chinese almost completely adapts the western way of living and thinking. Modern Chinese uses western value and thinking method to examine their own past. This creates an illusion, that the ancient East and West are equivalent.

p.s.2 Yes, the West has Newton and Einstein, but the East has Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, and Confucius. Can we say any of them is less important than the rest?
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qianhe12@2009-03-20 02:13

清朝的皇帝基本上保持了明朝的制度——顺便去除了其中的进步之处。清朝取代明朝是退步,甚至是灾难。

黑明朝可以黑,不过对比下满清,我觉得要是明朝能再延续300年其实很不错呢。
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lousao@2009-03-20 03:41

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最初由 rgw87 发布

马克思说的就是只有生产力高了才能过渡,硬要跳就一定仆街,真不知道怎么那么多人把“跑步奔共产”栽他头上。:rolleyes:

社会是生产力的基础

而制度决定着社会质量的高低

没有高等级制度哪来的生产力。。。

看小德一转制度,就强大了很多~

不要说什么其他东西提高生产力

制度所产生的腐败和浪费可以把那些东西统统消灭掉

这点外国佬也承认,绝对铁板钉钉的道理
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ingrid7777@2009-03-20 03:48

有位大神回归了。
这贴又可以来个几十页了,甚好。
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jie2000@2009-03-20 07:14

爬完留名
看完各位大神的发言,我只能说一句
“读书果然是有用的啊DX”
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rgw87@2009-03-20 08:13

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最初由 eee904ha 发布

Every one knows that apple falls down from the tree, but only Newton discovered the theory of gravity. This theory is Newton's way of explaining the event(apple falls down). The other people simply accepted his idea. But we can not ignore the fact that there might be some other way of explaining this event. Say, in Pluto, a guy developed a method different from that of Newton.

After all, modern science is just one of human's attempt to understand the universe. It is developed by human and can only be developed by human. Modern science is not THE TRUTH. In the future, something better might come up to replace it.

About European and Chinese, we can not say who is better. They are simply different. The way how European thinks helps them develop modern science. Ancient Chinese used some other ways to explain the world.

“科学只是人类解释世界的途径之一”——这说辞一点也不新鲜啊。你有没有看到我前面说的话(虽然不是对你说的)?怎么来的是一回事,管不管用是另一回事。“解释”谁都行,对不对就另说了,你以为实验室是用来干什么的?说现在的科学不是真理,可能有更好的理论,完全正确——但一点用也没有,是废话。“在我们看不到的地方,一切都将不同”,先定义一个“看不到”的地方,然后大谈这地方如何如何,不过是车库飞龙的翻版,没有半点科学意义。你以为科学能发展到今天只是靠“解释世界”?你以为是实验手册是写作教程?

或者,你能拿出点“完全异于人类的逻辑思维方式”,用证据让人信服?

还有,不要用“The other people simply accepted his idea. ”来侮辱古往今来无数物理学家的智力。“we can not ignore the fact that there might be some other way of explaining this event”当然没错,但你找不出那other way,这话就也是废话;而且,智力正常的人都不至于忽略“可能有更好的方法”这么轻松的想法,更别说那些杰出的科学家,你以为他们不想挑牛顿的刺?没挑出而已。人家可不是像你这样光会说“可能有刺”。阁下不要光动嘴,动动手,挑两根刺看看?

你谈文化就随便谈好了,谈科学麻烦遵守一下游戏规则,摆证据讲道理,不要老在幻想世界里转。
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