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关于视频源、场、桢、隔行、逐行的几点疑问

llztt@2004-12-10 16:36

本来只想学点压片的,没想到越学越不能自拔,到现在正迷惑于到底视频源有几种了:(,参考了vincent《XviD制作教程(10.22update) 》 、DOOM9上几篇文章还有卖逐行DVD机的文章,提出下面疑问:
[list=1]
[*]最源头视频------电影摄影机录制的(24桢/S)和电视摄影机录制的(50场/S PAL的、60场/S NTSC的)
[*]通过胶转磁制到DVD上:48场的电影碟、60场的视频碟、50场的视频碟
[*]电影碟又被称为逐行碟,那2种视频碟也有逐行碟和隔行碟之分?(我只听说隔行DVD机和逐行DVD机)
[*]我们电脑里所说的隔行信号和逐行信号是针对DVD光驱读碟生成隔行和逐行信号还是针对逐行的碟和隔行的碟?
[*]vincent文章里提到了Interlaced和progressive的PAL,好像PAL有隔行和逐行之分了,那NTSC也该有隔行与逐行之分了,但下面提到NTSC时,区分出了95%以上是FILM,这个FILM是逐行的NTSC呢还是电影碟的意思呢,如果是电影蝶的话,那么逐行的NTSC是什么呢?
[*]如果假设PAL DVD碟有隔行逐行之分,那么他们的存储或工作原理区别是什么呢??
[*]可否从显示原理上解释一下隔行逐行的区别?
[/list=1]

以上是我从很多参考资料那里得来的认识和疑问,希望了解显像管工作原理,熟悉电视电影发展历史的朋友指正一下错误,我想如果对上面问题有了完美解答对压片会有很大帮助的,起码是否或怎样对片源(DVD、DV等)进行IVTC就会得心应手了。
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wolfsoft@2004-12-11 00:26

建议去找视频标准白皮书来看

而且知道了对IVTC也没多大帮助,顶多是又知其所以然而已.除非你可以凭借标准来自己做个类似TMPG的工具,hummm.....
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Airkou@2004-12-11 02:48

你的问题也T多了
隔行显示是每隔一行显示直到显示完成后再返回刚才未显示的行继续显示。而逐行显示是顺序的显示每一行。在相同的刷新频率下,隔行显示的图像会比逐行显示闪烁和抖动的更为厉害。不过现在实厂商所见到的显示器几乎都是逐行的
这里涉及到电子枪、遮罩与偏向线圈等零部件...
这些东西不是几句话就能说明的...多看一些硬件相关的书..自己琢磨...问别人的话最好只问具体问题
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llztt@2004-12-11 11:52

引用
引用点DD
[1.40] What's a progressive DVD player?
A progressive-scan DVD player converts the interlaced (480i) video from DVD into progressive (480p) format for connection to a progressive-scan display (31.5 kHz or higher). Progressive players work with all standard DVD titles, but look best with film source. The result is a significant increase in perceived vertical resolution for a more detailed and film-like picture. Since computers use progressive-scan monitors, DVD PCs are by definition progressive-scan players, although quality varies quite a bit (see 4.1 and 2.12).

There's enormous confusion about whether DVD video is progressive or interlaced. Here's the one true answer: Progressive-source video (such as from film) is usually encoded on DVD as interlaced field pairs that can be reinterleaved by a progressive player to recreate the original progressive video. See 3.8 for further explanation of interlaced and progressive scanning.

You must use a progressive-scan display in order to get the full benefit of a progressive-scan player. However, all progressive players also include interlaced outputs, so you can use one with a standard TV until you upgrade to a progressive TV. (You may have to use a switch on the back of the player to set it to interlaced output.)

Toshiba developed the first progressive-scan player (SD5109, $800) in mid 1998, but didn't release it until fall of 1999 because of copy protection concerns. Panasonic also released a progressive-scan player (DVD-H1000, $3000) in fall of 1999. Many manufacturers have released progressive models since then at progressively cheaper prices (pun intended). It's also possible to buy an external line multiplier to convert the output of a standard DVD player to progressive scanning.

Converting interlaced DVD video to progressive video involves much more than putting film frames back together. There are essentially three ways to convert from interlaced to progressive:
1- reinterleaving (also called weave). If the original video is from a progressive source, such as film, the two fields can be recombined into a single frame.
2- Line doubling (also called bob). If the original video is from an interlaced source, simply combining two fields will cause motion artifacts (the effect is reminiscent of a zipper), so each line of a single field is repeated twice to form a frame. Better line doublers use interpolation to produce new lines that are a combination of the lines above and below. The term line doubler is vague, since cheap line doublers only bob, while expensive line doublers (those that contain digital signal processors) can also weave.
3- Field-adaptive deinterlacing, which examines individual pixels across three or more fields and selectively weaves or bobs regions of the picture as appropriate. Chips to do this used to cost $10,000 and up, but the feature is now appearing in consumer DVD players.
4- And there's also a fourth way, called motion-adaptive deinterlacing, which examines MPEG-2 motion vectors or does massive image processing to identify moving objects in order to selectively weave or bob regions of the picture as appropriate. Most systems that do this well cost $50,000 and up (aside from the cool but defunct Chromatic Mpact2 chip).

There are three common kinds of deinterlacing systems:
1- Integrated. This is usually best, where the deinterlacer is integrated with the MPEG-2 decoder so that it can read MPEG-2 flags and analyze the encoded video to determine when to bob and when to weave. Most DVD computers use this method.
2- Internal. The digital video from the MPEG-2 decoder is passed to a separate deinterlacing chip. The disadvantage is that MPEG-2 flags and motion vectors may no longer available to help the deinterlacer determine the original format and cadence. (Some internal chips receive the repeat_first_field and top_field_first flags passed from the decoder, but not the progressive_scan flag.)
3- External. Analog video from the DVD player is passed to a separate deinterlacer (line multiplier) or to a display with a built-in deinterlacer. In this case, the video quality is slightly degraded from being converted to analog, back to digital, and often back again to analog. However, for high-end projection systems, a separate line multiplier (which scales the video and interpolates to a variety of scanning rates) may achieve the best results.

Most progressive DVD players use an internal deinterlacing chip, usually from Genesis/Faroudja. Some use MPEG decoders with integrated deinterlacing. Some, such as Toshiba's "Super Digital Progressive" players and Panasonic's progressive-scan player add 4:4:4 chroma oversampling, which provides a slight quality boost from DVD's native 4:2:0 format. Add-on internal deinterlacers such as the Cinematrix and MSB Progressive Plus are available to convert existing players to progressive-scan output. Faroudja, Silicon Image (DVDO), and Videon (Omega) line multipliers are examples of external deinterlacers.

A progressive DVD player has to determine whether the video should be line-doubled (bobbed) or reinterleaved (weaved). When reinterleaving film-source video, the player also has to deal with the difference between film frame rate (24 Hz) and TV frame rate (30 Hz). Since the 2-3 pulldown trick can't be used to spread film frames across video fields, there are worse motion artifacts than with interleaved video. However, the increase in resolvable detail more than makes up for it. Advanced progressive players such as the Princeton PVD-5000 and DVD computers can get around the problem by displaying at multiples of 24 Hz such as 72 Hz, 96 Hz, and so on.

A progressive player also has to deal with problems such as video that doesn't have clean cadence (as when it's edited after being converted to interlaced video, when bad fields are removed during encoding, when the video is speed-shifted to match the audio track, and so on). Another problem is that many DVDs are encoded with incorrect MPEG-2 flags, so the reinterleaver has to recognize and deal with pathological cases. In some instances it's practically impossible to determine if a sequence is 30-frame interlaced video or 30-frame progressive video. For example, the documentary on Apollo 13 is interlaced video encoded as if it were progressive. Other examples of improper encoding are Titanic, Austin Powers, Fargo, More Tales of the City, the Galaxy Quest theatrical trailer, and The Big Lebowski making-of featurette.

One problem is that many TVs with progressive input don't allow the aspect ratio to be changed -- they assume all progressive-scan input is anamorphic. When a non-anamorphic (4:3) picture is sent to these TVs they distort it by stretching it out! Before you buy a DTV, make sure that it allows aspect ratio adjustment on progressive input. Or get a player with an aspect ratio control option that "windowboxes" 4:3 video into a 16:9 rectangle by squeezing it horizontally and adding black bars on the side. Because of the added scaling step this degrades picture quality, but at least it gets around the problem.

Just as early DVD computers did a poor job of progressive-scan display of DVDs, the first generations of progressive consumer players are also a bit disappointing. But as techniques improve, and as DVD producers become more aware of the steps they must take to ensure good progressive display, and as more progressive displays appear in homes, the experience will undoubtedly improve, bringing home theaters closer to real theaters.

For more on progressive video and DVD, see part 5 and player ratings in the excellent DVD Benchmark series at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity.

第二段说DVD信号是逐行还是隔行有很大争议,它的论点是逐行的信号(譬如电影)编码到DVD上时是用隔行的场对,然后可以用逐行DVD机处理还原为逐行信号。(疑问是:这里的逐行隔行信号是怎么区分的呢?隔行逐行显示象上面兄弟所说,但隔行逐行的视频该怎么区分呢?难道是看奇偶两场是否来自同一时间同副图片?电影的桢分成奇偶两场是这样的)
下面还介绍了很多相关DD,大家有兴趣看看
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水月含风@2004-12-11 15:41

回楼上的。。
对这些有兴趣的人应该不多。。

着你大多数人应该只对视频的格式、质量、编码等有兴趣。。。。。。
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vorrhy622@2004-12-11 17:53

那个“FILM“达到95%是指24P(progressive)占片源的95%
就是说这张DVD在制作时IVTC率达到95%,当大于95%时,只要做普通的IVTC基本就可以了
小于时,要做更为精确的IVTC
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曾半仙@2004-12-12 01:12

为什么要想办法区分,只是存放的空间变换,打个比方就相当于你硬盘上存了一个有碎片的文件,你不用想办法如何区分这块在文件的哪部分
而且做的好的,换一个角度,碎片本身才是幻象,也即显示的加了处理
对于电视机,影碟机系统是黑匣子的说,除了他自己都可以是幻象
除非是D的不好的D版,或者是由某些软件没有解就作为raw画面D出来成PAL,那才只能靠规律来凑了,这类碟也就是传说中的通缉榜上的花质黑碟吧
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skywalker@2004-12-12 07:59

如果片源是24FPS的, 数字化的时候就要做3:2 pulldown, 转到DVD时可以把这个信号放进去, 也可以IVTC后再放进去.............
IVTC后放进去的就会显示film, 没有做IVTC的就会显示NTSC...........
至于PAL, 则是把24FPS的片源加速播放到25FPS, 50 field/s.......

至于如何分辨是film还是NTSC interlace的, film的就算做了3:2 pulldown也不会每帧都有交错, 而每帧都有交错的就是NTSC的电视信号了............

电视做到DVD上只能是隔行显示的, 电影则可做成逐行显示的...........
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llztt@2004-12-12 13:12

呵呵,还是斑竹帅
你说的“也可以IVTC后再放进去”中的IVTC是什么意思呢,不是还原29.97为胶片的23.976的意思吧?
据我所知,DVD起码有下面几种[list=1]
[*]标准电影碟:电影胶片处理编码到DVD并插入2-3 pulldown(for ntsc)或2-2 pulldown(for pal)标记(应该是48场/S)
[*]视频碟:由电视摄像机录制或从电视上录制的片源编码到DVD(50场/S PAL或60场/S NTSC)
[*]模拟翻录的电影碟:60场/S而且没有标记。不知道有没有50场/S无标记的(我想这种DVD也就是skywalker斑竹所说的IVTC(?)后再编码到DVD的DVD了)
[/list=1]
引用
In the case of 24 fps source, the encoder embeds MPEG-2 repeat_first_field flags into the video stream to make the decoder either perform 2-3 pulldown for 60Hz NTSC displays (actually 59.94Hz) or 2-2 pulldown (with resulting 4% speedup) for 50Hz PAL/SECAM displays. In other words, the player doesn't "know" what the encoded rate is, it simply follows the MPEG-2 encoder's instructions to produce the predetermined display rate of 25 fps or 29.97 fps. This is one of the main reasons there are two kinds of discs, one for NTSC and one for PAL.

上面引用符合skywalker斑竹所说。
这样的话,可以推断
[list=1]
[*]标准电影碟可以用IVTC通过标记识别是胶片源而还原为23.976的胶片
[*]视频碟通过FieldDeinterlace使交错的隔行信号处理成 较好 的逐行信号(因为电脑显示器是逐行显示设备),注意是较好的
[*]第三种碟麻烦点,因为没有标记无法识别源片是胶片的,但是又可以通过比较场发现是逐行的信号,所以不用Deinterlace也不用IVTC了。
[/list=1]
有个结论我觉得Deinterlace不属于IVTC,只是一种处理交错的技术,可以更好的把交错的隔行信号,用逐行扫描显示出来。这一点很难成立,因为我看好多论坛的技术帖子都表明Deinterlace是IVTC的一个技术。

请感兴趣朋友再来看看了,欢迎发表评论,谢谢

唉,发这个帖子,花了一上午时间,郁闷
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vorrhy622@2004-12-12 23:17

deinterlace不就是反交错吗?与IVTC可以联系上吗?
它只是让原本交错的帧显得不再交错,并不是象IVTC那样做还原使得不错交错
而且是针对单幅画面进行的
其实就象你用decomb的telecide()开了vthresh一样,当帧达到某一交错程度时,就会给后机处理拿来做deinterlace
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llztt@2004-12-13 10:49

回楼上的,我看很多帖子里说到IVTC就decomb,而DECOMB又包含FIELDdeinterlace,所以给人感觉deinterlace是IVTC了。总之,我觉得如果理解IVTC为还原29.97或25的为23.976的胶片(注意是还原),那么deinterlace不该算为IVTC的一部分。
我不知道大家实践结果怎么样,我这里没有正版电影DVD,我也搞不清楚我用的盗版DVD是不是上面所说的模拟翻录的电影碟,我搞盗版的DVD不用IVTC的。
请问那些搞过正版DVD的,是不是都需要IVTC啊?
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曾半仙@2004-12-13 12:28

说得平常一些,Deinterlace,无法进行IVTC后的下策.
也就是说deinterlace无法得到源视频的结构,还会损伤画面的说,
或者举个例子,他是对"残像"模仿出来的信息,IVTC是将残像的2部分合起来

正版NTSC的DVD,有的需要,有的不需要,
不过盗版的1区DVD也一样有film的~~~~
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曾半仙@2004-12-13 12:38

还有,帧率的变换,和出给电视画面的隔行又全是没关系的,
也即是说,一个是面对碟,一个是面对电视产的
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vorrhy622@2004-12-13 12:54

PAL(25FPS)的无须要做IVTC,它采用的只是2:2的Pulldown,也就是画面根本没交错。只不过是把播放速度及声音提高了4%,所以对于PAL的一般直接压缩就可以了

另外,FIELDdeinterlace()是给片源全部是交错用的,例如日本的动画就很喜欢在制作后再加上字幕,也就成了30i的。这时就需要用到FIELDdeinterlace了
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llztt@2004-12-13 16:24

嘿嘿,说实话,讨论这个话题如果纯粹是为了压片时合理调用IVTC的话,确实有点牵强了,因为按vincent教程里提到的,压片时使用各种方式的预览方法就可以判定是否或如何对片子做IVTC了。讨论片源分类法只是想换个角度明确压片的IVTC问题,不过讨论到这个地步还是 不是很明朗,所以对很多压片者来说预览实践法更适合了。
我想没个满意结果主要还是没有充足的片源做测试,我这里是很穷了NO 办法,所以谁有条件多测试一下吧,我想测试多了应该可以明确对下列片源分类的IVTC问题。[list=1][*]PAL的正版电影碟[*]PAL的视频碟(象演唱会)[*]PAL的模拟翻录电影碟[*]NTSC的正版电影碟[*]NTSC的视频碟(象演唱会)[*]NTSC的模拟翻录电影碟[/list=1]片源少,上面分类可能缺少些更复杂的分类,请熟悉者指点。
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