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[随想]关于漫画连载区高桥最新短篇'可爱的花'的一些观感
wwmidia@2005-08-28 11:07
连接:
http://popgo.net/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188083&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
一,稍稍表现了一下现在社会上女性的审美观和偶像类型
二,对怀孕和生命的奇妙作一些赞叹
三,我觉得最有趣味的,是那个空木先生,他每天生活在那种花香之中,整天看到的又是什么呢?恐怕就是梨花子吧?所以才会最终不可自拔呀
四,关于花名,odi et amo,这是一首拉丁文的诗名,非常有趣,非常有名
Odi et Amo
Caius Valerius Catullus (84? B.C.–54? B.C.)
ODI et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.
这首诗在拉丁文学史上之所以有名的,因为其相当晦涩艰深:拉丁文的文法结构过于复杂了,所以让这首诗有了无限种翻译可能.我偷懒贴一篇评论文章
The Stoic philosopher, Epictetus, who urged against letting passions rule, could have been writing for Catullus, the lyric poet so well known for a tempestuous affair with a woman he called Lesbia. While Lesbia us named in only thirteen of Catullus' carmina, she is implicit in 26, among which is the memorable elegiac couplet, carmen lxv.
THE POEM
Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.
ANALYSIS OF THE STRUCTURE
Forget, for a moment, about translating it. The structure of the poem is almost as important as the words themselves. Noting how and where certain words are used lets you see what the poet was emphasizing. In a language where poetry doesn't rhyme and where word order is more flexible than English, these are some of the elements that separate mundane writing from the inspirational.
chiastic structure of Carmen 85 Catullus - Odi et amo.
The first word is a verb; the second, a conjunction; the third a verb. Go to the end of the sentence to see the same construction. Now look up the forms and note the meaning of these four verbs: (odi) hate, (amo) love, (sentio) feel, and (excrucior) am crucified -- two negatives and two positive emotions. Not only are there two very strong negative emotions, but they're competing for prominence in this poem by taking first and ultimate place. This forms a cross called chiasmus. The antepenultimate (ante [before] paene [almost] ultimate [last] = third to last) position of sentio also forms a cross with the third word from the beginning of the couplet.
This chiastic structure continues with the verbs of doing, faciam and fieri. In the first doing verb (faciam), Catullus is doing it, and in the second (fieri), it is being done to him -- just like the active odi vs. the passive excrucior. There is also a third parallel construction. Requiris (you ask) matched by the answer nescio (I don't know).
TRANSLATION
I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.
CONTEXT
Who is this person for whom Catullus is suffering such unstoic passion? Probably Lesbia, the name believed to have been given by Catullus to his mistress. Although we aren't certain, we believe Lesbia was really Clodia, the elder sister of the P. Clodius Pulcher (the man charged with sacrilege by Cicero for illegally infiltrating an all-female ceremony for the bona dea) and the promiscuous wife and later widow of Q. Caecilius Metellus. It appears that Catullus' relationship with her ended when she took on as lover, Caelius Rufus.
The carmina that specifically mention Lesbia are: 5, 7, 43, 51, 58, 72, 75, 79, 83, 86, 87, 92, and 107. Through these and the other poems in which she is not named (2, 3, 8, 11, 13, 36, 37, 68, 70, 76, 85, 104, and 109), Catullus shares with the reader the joy and anguish he feels.
看完这个,你就会发觉高桥的本意,其实是想以这个短篇,来介绍这首名诗吧?^^
Catullus对Lesbia的感情,就仿佛是空木对梨花子一样的,在里面闷烧着,甚至都不知自己做出了何种荒唐的行为
我觉得,高桥先生应该是到了开始集中精力钻研学问来充实自己的阶段了吧?至少这个短篇就是一个信号. 非很了解这段故事,是创作不出'可爱的花'的
忏悔的奈落@2005-08-28 13:11
好深，偶外语差，研究了很久，我比较爱赵大叔的《动物世界》……~~XD
花香令女人陶醉与幻想，怀孕让女人聪明和敏感……高桥也许在给现实社会中爱幻想的女人们抓抓痒，乐一下……顺便讽刺一下以为只用“花香”之类东西就能俘虏所有女人的花痴男们……
……那爱情诗是拉丁男写的？辗转反侧很是郁闷……高桥用这诗在女人的角度创作了漫画……偶看完得出的结论是——
——日后如果追MM千万不要送花…… :D
wwmidia@2005-08-28 13:26
I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.
我爱,我恨. 我为何如此?你或许会问
我不知, 但我感受这份煎熬并燃烧
只是觉得高桥完全是在写这首诗的现代版搞笑故事而已~
忏悔的奈落@2005-08-28 13:47
引用
最初由 wwmidia 发布
I hate and I love. Why do I do it, perchance you might ask?
I don't know, but I feel it happening to me and I'm burning up.
我爱,我恨. 我为何如此?你或许会问
我不知, 但我感受这份煎熬并燃烧
只是觉得高桥完全是在写这首诗的现代版搞笑故事而已~
高桥一定很喜欢这首诗……话说只有喜欢的才会拿来虐待，这是高桥的宗旨……
就象漫画里的人物……
cleverduan@2005-08-30 16:51
引用
最初由 忏悔的奈落 发布
高桥一定很喜欢这首诗……话说只有喜欢的才会拿来虐待，这是高桥的宗旨……
就象漫画里的人物……
大神自己也说了，本来有时候想画点正经的东西，弄到后面都变成搞笑的了，所以，越是喜欢，越要恶搞。
就像面堂说诸星当一样：“怎么什么事情到你这里，好像都风雅不起来。”
什么东西到了高桥这里，都严肃不起来一样。（就连人鱼都有轻松的地方）
wwmidia@2005-08-30 18:05
其实,一个能够表现得上等又优雅的人,故意地行止搞笑俗气,我是很欣赏的,这比一个分明低级趣味的人装作风雅要好太多了
疯兔子@2005-08-30 22:49
高桥这人
骨子里是逆天的
便是那种宁肯幼稚都不要屈服而违背本性的那种
（喝茶--）
NPC@2005-08-31 00:03
多谢转帖，对third parallel construction比较有兴趣，当然这也是文章的精髓所在，即----我已经完全燃烧，成了雪白的灰...高桥不是在拐弯kuso明日的丈吧？虽然早在福星中期已经引用过。
不过看文也好，漫画也好，总是拖着自己的主观认识，比如女子高生vol5p132，高桥同学上学一幕，注意她脚底有只乌龟，这是否在kuso芝诺的阿基里斯追龟论，于是想到普朗克常量，接着是薛定谔的风流史...我到底是在高估大岛还是看轻了古人，其实只是生生不息yy不止而已。
想到爱的徒劳中出现过一个极有“品位”的词，突然看见楼上所说“分明低级趣味的人装作风雅”不正是俺吗？嗬嗬，最后还是去查了那个词----honorificabilitudinitatibus
blue_wonder@2005-09-14 10:00
正是高桥这个不严肃的性格吸引我呀！（汗……）
另：喜欢闷烧……
mika1985@2005-09-15 10:28
好严肃的讨论,,拜一下~~~~~~~~~~~``
billyswong@2005-09-15 16:33
ODI et AMO 恨與愛
又恨又愛, 為何仍幹下去? 或是自己想去追.
不去知不去管; 但到感受最深時, 也是酷刑.
----
臨時找拉丁文字典加入無邊想像力的版本(笑)
但...怎麼和某樓的差這麼遠?!
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